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I've long thought of doing a series here on Carteach0, featuring local gun shops and their owners. I thought it would be interesting to read about how they started in the business, some of their experiences, and their thoughts on where their business is heading.
Today that notion came back to me after a visit to my 'favorite' store.... and I guess I have to re-think the plan a little. Driving along, all the local shops I've haunted came up for review..... and somehow most were found wanting in one way or another.
That brings forth a question: What do YOU look for when you choose a shop to do business with? What pleases you.... and what turns you away?
As for Carteach... perhaps it's a just a general negative nature, but the shops local to me are not shining at just this moment.
The closest (and I won't name any of these....) gun store is an interesting place that's been around a long, long time. It's on a main highway, and not more than ten minutes from the house. Their stock is light, but decent, with enough turnover to make stopping in every month or so of value. The thing is.... I am aware of a few instances where their moral judgment and mine differ... to put it gently. The owner of the store was quite proud to tell me how he had bought an original WWII Colt 1911 in it's original military holster and belt rig from an old timer who clearly didn't know what he had..... for 1/10th it's real value. He laughed when he related how the old guy had come in a few days later and tried to get it back. That... grated.... bad.
The next shop out... while a decent business and has always been a place to find unique mil-surps (finding a Johnson on the their rack is run of the mill!)..... has had a dwindling stock for months now, and seems to be winding down business. While stopping there on passing is certainly worth the time, I would be hesitant to put something on layaway, for fear the store front would be empty a week later.
Moving further from the secret Carteach0 headquarters cave, there is another shop which is darn well stocked in every sense of the word, but has usually given 'Ol Carteach a feeling of 'attitude'. Their used rack is thick with interesting long arms, and their pistol cases sport the latest and greatest right alongside some oldies but goodies. The back room is fully stocked with reloading gear and supplies, and that is a rare thing these days. That said, their prices are generally set above suggested retail. I suspect this may have something to do with the $200 shooting glasses the 'pistol expert' wears behind the counter, and the financing thereof. I've stood by while he told a new lady shooter she 'needed' a .357 snubby as a first pistol.... and bit my tongue bloody while keeping my mouth shut.
My (till now) favorite gun shop... about 25 minutes from home... is a nice place. Decent shop with a good stock, both new and used, and enough related gear to keep most people happy. It seems to be a family run place, and boasts a well equipped in-house gunsmith with an excellent reputation locally. The 'Smith has asked me to look at one of his custom rifles and write about it here on the blog, and I was inclined to do, and honored he asked. The thing is, I have been having some firearms shipped to and from their shop (so I can test/review them). Today on the way home, I added up what that has cost me... and realized I have dropped a significant chunk of change there on nothing more than 'fees', with nothing really to show for it. Now, I know they need to make money to stay in business, and I don't begrudge them that at all.... but maybe the stack-o-guns I have bought there in the past could have counted for something. I haven't an easy answer..... but am left with no real desire to hurry back soon.
There's other shops I can range to, and will, yet the questions come to mind.... and so I lay them before my learned and wise readers.
What do you look for in a gun shop? What experience tends to make you loyal to a business? What drives you away?
48 minutes ago
26 comments:
In my humble opinion, the biggest thing to look for in any business is how they treat their customers. If a business treats their customers poorly, they probably won't be in business for long and won't get my business for sure. Selection and price are important; but, it's how a business makes me feel that keeps me coming back or drives me away. If they ignore me, treat me like I'm stupid/unimportant or act like they don't need my business, they'll never hear from me again. By the same token, if they are friendly, patient and go the extra mile for me, I'll be their best advertising agency.
Sounds like we look for the same things in a shop, friendly, courteous, informed and willing to share the information and above all fair dealing. Sadly, that's not easy to find anymore. In my area over the years many smaller shops have closed and the ones that remain all seem to be lacking something in the way of personal service.
I just go with whomever has what I need at the best price. I have no particular store or venue to frequent. I do agree that some things at the shops do "grate" badly on my nerves, and I find advice generally lacking at every shop and venue. They come off as used car salesman.
I have a warm feeling for gunshops that recognize that women can also be customers.
OTOH, one of the ones that seemed to ignore women was also one that had run-of-the-mill Mosin-Nagants "on sale" for $200.
My observations of late that, where ever I go, it appears that the counter people have been jaded after long exposure to people who just want to look and grip instead of buy. But, once an intent to buy is communicated, you get honest help.
Of course, there are always exceptions to both observations. That's the problem with generalizations.
After decades of dealing with gun store employees I gave up. Ignorant, pompous, posturing, and with a need to prove how macho they are. These are all the attitudes that turn me off instantly. Not a commercial but when a reputable firm like Davidsons came on the web I bought in immediately. I now do all my research on the web, make a decision and purchase on Galleryofguns.com. My interactions with the local morons is down to around 15 minutes to process the NICS check. Yes they don't have EVERY brand, and the prices are a couple of bucks higher than I MIGHT get at some store and after haggling. But it's cut and dry. In and out.
Oh and don't even get me started on buying at a gunshow. Had a seller brag how he rammed a cleaning rod stuck in a drill with sandpaper, down a used Mil rifle...ha ha ha he laughed about some sucker buying the gun cause it had a bright bore :(
It's difficult to pin down one thing that brings me back, but not having certain negative qualities helps.
I'm in California, which adds a level of frustration to the transaction. While every FFL knows the laws, some use them as another excuse to jack up their prices. Most guns here are 15 to 40% more expensive than in the Free States. The dealers I buy from are at the lower end.
Another factor is the state's "safe handgun" list-if a gun model isn't on the list, you can't buy it. This applies to used guns too, with one exception: consignment sales. Consigned guns are considered "private" sales (even though it still has to be processed by an FFL). So one can buy guns that will never make the list, but these guns will have a premium attached to them because they are otherwise unavailable; consequently, used guns that are NOT "consigned" are extremely rare here A used S&W revolver without a lock will cost more than the exact same gun new! Certain dealers will charge quite a bit more than others. Since almost none of my purchases are for new guns, this is a huge factor. That, and the relative number of used guns available.
Then there are the factors everyone experiences: the idjit "experts", the "I don't believe in customer service" owners, and the reliability (or lack ) of previous purchases.
Antibubba
PS: for those without high blood pressure issues, here is the roster of approved guns:
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
A gun that a manufacturer wants to sell here has to go through destructive testing, at about $3000 each, not including the cost of the gun. Keep in mind, for State purposes, a "model" means having no variables, so for example, a S&W Model 66 with fixed sights and a 6" barrel is one model, but if the barrel is 4" that variation has to be tested separately. If it has adjustable sights, that's a different model, and has to be tested too. Blued vs Duracote? Different models. Wood grips vs rubber? Different! Thinking about all those variables and it's logical that most manufacturers only submit 1 or 2 variations for sale here.
Naturally, these and other restrictions do not apply to Law Enforcement and certain other elites.
I need a Xanax now.
My favorite gun store has a great guy behind the counter. The draw back is they are a pawn shop and therefore completely mercenary. I've seen some very irritating things go on there. They also won't do FFL transfers so I have to go elsewhere for that service. It's getting to the point that Gunbroker is my favorite gun store.
Customer service is built on trust. Once they ripped off the old timer and made him into a private joke with you they lost all trust. Who are you the private joke for, now that you know how he behaves?
I have a local shop that a lot of people in the black rifle community hate. They treat me fair, sell what I want to buy and stock thing I want to look at, and evaluate. Their prices are kind of high, but their A/C is set low and the place is pleasant to be in. I know that just about everything I buy from them is available elsewhere a little or a lot cheaper, but I pay the price knowing that when i need a spring or a pin for an AR they will have them in stock when I walk in the door. I do try to support the other shops in the area, because I know that competition will keep them on the top of their customer service game.
My favorite gunshop plus indoor range is owned and operated by a couple who are the same age as my parents. Friendly and helpful from the first visit I made there about 10 years ago looking for airgun supplies.
The inventory isn't extensive but they will order anything and give you a good price on it. They have a number of used guns move through the shop at good prices. I found a nice Belgian Browning .22 Auto rifle on their used rack several years ago.
The owners built and opened the range and shop ten years ago because they love the shooting sports and it shows in the way they conduct business.
Living in New York - even the rural upstate area - means a somewhat limited selection of shops.
By distance:
16mi: My favorite shop when I want a gun shop. A good selection of handguns and long guns with moderate turnover. If he doesn't have it, he's happy to order it. Transfers are a flat $25. VERY limited hours (three evenings and Saturday morning), and usually very busy. Worth the wait. Knows my name and what I was looking for (answers emails promptly) when I walk in the door. (Ruger LCP: $289 new.)
18mi: One of the last kitchen-table FFLs around here. Working on turning it into a real store to retire into. CHEAP transfers ($15 long guns, $20 handguns), but by-appointment-only. Haven't ordered anything new through him yet so can't really comment on pricing.
20mi: The first local gun shop I visited. Good hours, fair prices. Owner is a bit of a curmudgeon and the shop is dim/dingy and very out of the way. VERY slow turnover on inventory. On the plus side, plenty of reloading supplies... but he won't order powder outside his preferred brand. (RamShot.)
20mi (the other direction): I've been here once, and won't visit again. Good hours if you're in a bind, but look down their nose at ... well, most everyone. Prices are high; expect to pay full list for anything in the store and "ANIB" values for used guns. (Ruger LCP: $359 new.)
Overall, I'm looking for a shop that makes me feel like a valued customer, that has or can get what I need/want, and has fair pricing. I don't begrudge them their profit at all; I do object to preying on those who don't know better.
It seems that people think of gun shops pretty much the way they think of most business's. What they want is to be treated decently, and deal with honest people.
Price doesn't seem to be the main driver, but it comes in a very, very close second.
I suspect gun shops are in a category with 'luxury' business's. Places we *like* to go, but don't *have* to go. If that's the case, customer service is everything.
There's only one gun store within 50 miles of me, so I guess that one is my favorite.
@%&#$ Maryland !!
I'll tell you about my favorite Gun Shop, now closed.
The store was sole owner operated. The owner was mildly eccentric, but knowledgeable. He was opinionated, and while he would share his opinions the customer was always right and could always get what they wanted. Even if it had to be ordered.
Now that wasn't what drew me to the shop. What drew me was the atmosphere. There were stools at the counter and a couple of chairs and even a sofa for customers to sit at.
There's not enough space to discuss all of the good memories from that place. Suffice to stay 'going to the gun shop' was the equivalent of 'going to the bar with the guys' for the regulars. Which wasn't composed only of guys.
In retail you can provide one or two of the following: Price, quality, or service.
Every store I frequent displays their preference of these three aspects of retail and can be identified easily. As long as they display two of these, they will get my return business. If they only display one then I rarely return.
I suspect gun shops are in a category with 'luxury' business's. Places we *like* to go, but don't *have* to go. If that's the case, customer service is everything.
This strikes me as a very accurate assessment, because "gun shop" to me denotes "boutique". Not in a bad Rodeo Drive way, but in the idea that you are spending discretionary income on semi-luxury items.
I don't consider a place like Dick's Sporting Goods or Bass Pro Shop or Gander Mountain to be a gun shop. They're sporting goods stores with a gun counter. The staff may have some VERY minimal training in firearms, but they're not (generally speaking) going to quibble over the difference between a Glock with poly rifling and an XD with traditional button rifling.
At $BigBoxShop, the gun counter is *point* "I want that one." "Sign here, give money." There's a reason they (for the most part) don't carry four-figure price tags, and don't care to order things - that's not their customer base.
If I go to my local shop not quite sure what I want, the counter guy is usually willing to let me fondle as many guns as I'd like until I find what works. Part of that, no doubt, is that he knows when I start fondling with one hand, I'm likely reaching for my wallet for the other.
This actually ties in well with Tam's recent post about bespoke guns. You can't get that from Gander, and if you're going to drop a few thousand on a new gun - particularly a custom one - you have every right to expect top-notch service.
I see that this is not just a local problem. In my city, I've seen a number of local gun shops come and go over the last 30+ years. Some were staffed/owned by decent folks, and some were staffed/owned by apparent Neanderthals.
The 800-pound-gorilla gun store in this city did seem to have a holier-than-thou attitude a few years ago, but I have noticed much less of that, although it hasn't completely gone away, over the last couple of years, making it a much more pleasant place to browse/shop. One thing they did was to get a few younger folks on staff, who seem to carry less of the condescension many of the older staff do. (BTW, they have a LOT of staff. No matter when I go there, no fewer than 6-8 sales people are in evidence, sometimes more.)
Thank goodness for the 'Net. An hour or so of research on it can yield a ton of knowledge--and some of it is actually true! No more are we buyers captive to the gun rags and gun counter poseurs for information. Now, with few exceptions, we don't have to take their misinformation and gruff for we have other options.
Best gunshop- Clark's in Bossier City, LA. Either Jerry or Kay was usually behind the counter, ocassionally Jim Jr. I've NEVER had a bad experience there! Two other good shops, one in Arkansas, one it Texas that I frequent, both are reasonable, people are knowledgeable, and above all, treat people respectfully and honestly. Both do sell under MSRP, and are willing to set folks up with good trainers in their areas. In NOVA, not so much... The place I do my transfers is high priced, can be dismissive if they don't know you, and even the consignment stuff is high...
I gave up on pawn shops as they tended to want WAY too much for used and new were always AT/above MSRP.
For me, the most important thing is that I get treated well and with respect. I look young for my age (a trait I hope to keep as long as I can) so it's pretty easy not to be taken seriously at some stores.
My favorite store in town is a bit more expensive than the others, but they know me as I have been shopping there for years. This means they are willing to work with me on price and extras, and if I put something on lay-a-way, they give me an extra month or so to pay it off.
To me, that's worth the little extra money, and it continues to build good will.
By the same token, I respect their time. If I'm in one of my "just looking" moods, I'll let them know. That way they can concentrate on other customers and I won't waste their time. Of course, this means that when I do want to look at a gun, I'm ready to either make a purchase or narrow down my choices for doing so. Whenever I get to that point, they have always been helpful--for good reason, I know--but it's still nice to experience.
Pro - HONESTY. Keeps me coming back. "No, you don't want THIS."
Willingness to negotiate a price. Layaway. My fav shop even lets 'regular customers' behind the counter to shop. Implicit in this arrangement is knowing you also provide additional security.
They've called me at home, advising they have a deal on something they knew I was looking for - not a sales pitch. If they don't know an answer, they research it and get back to you.
I have all this in one shop.
Con - Giving away free targets, with likenesses of real people, like Pelosi, Ms. Brady...I think this is just tasteless, and borders on criminal.
I have had surprisingly good service at all of the local gun stores. I think it is the first time I have gone looking for something where everyone I talked to gave me incredible service. This extends to the large indoor range, the local family owned shop, the "biggest gun store in the city" store, the small old guy's hangout gun shop, and the local country middle of nowhere store. Everyone gave me a bunch of good advice on my first handgun (which was backed up by my online research) and no one tried to sell my wife on a snub revolver.
Granted, that was for my one handgun purchase I have made so far (with basic accessories at various points afterward). In the end, I go back to the small family store most because they seem like nice guys, they have really cool classic military guns on display, and they sell *really* cheap handloads. But I'd feel perfectly comfortable buying gear from any of them.
Carteach:
Of the shops you mentioned, the one that sounded best was the one 25 miles out. If your only real issue with them is the fee money it's costing you, why not mention it to them (in a polite, agreeable way, naturally)?
"Hey, I like a lot of things about your store, and business. I buy/have bought a fair amount of guns from you, and have had a fair amount of guns shipped in for review and testing. Given that I'm a long standing customer, could I get a break on the transfer charges?"
Maybe it'd open their eyes?
Shop #1:
There's a semi-rural shop I walked into looking for a Glock 19 magazine. This was a few weeks after the 2008 election. They didn't have any of those on the rack of pistol magazines out on the floor, so I thought I'd ask at the counter. Nobody was doing any business, just a couple older guys behind the counter shooting the s**t with a few older guys on the other side of the counter. It took me ten minutes to get anybody's attention. The first guy behind the counter that I talked to turned out to be a customer. He seemed a bit annoyed that I thought he worked there, just because he was behind the counter.
Finally I got an employee to admit I existed. He dug around in a box of mags behind the counter, looked at the computer, and told me they didn't have any — and furthermore, nobody in the country had any at any price, anywhere, but he offered to try ordering one (his idea, not mine) and see if he had any luck. I thanked him, told him to go ahead gave him my name and phone number.
So I drove straight down to Cabela's and bought two G19 mags, no sweat. I called the Olde-Timer Gun Shop a few weeks later to check on the order, and the guy on the phone told me to forget it. No G19 mags to be had anywhere, for love or money. I thanked him politely for all the trouble he'd gone to.
If I were over 50 and I'd lived here all my life, it'd be a perfect hangout, but maybe not much of a gun shop. As it is, I won't be back, but I'm glad to see them doing so well they don't want my business. Maybe their buddies spend enough money there that it's more profitable to hang out drinking coffee with old customers than to talk to new ones.
Shop #2: A bit less rural, not as many old-timers. Whether they've got old-timers shooting the s**t with 'em or not, they ask if you need any help. If you do, they've always got time for you. The help you get isn't always world-class, but they make an honest effort. I've bought a couple guns there and I'll be back.
Shop #3: Big emporium (local place, not Cabela's). Last time I was in, I wasted half an hour of a counter-guy's time dithering between two pistols. He gave some thought to what I said I wanted, and finally suggested a third, one I'd never considered. He was right, and I took that one home. Not the first gun I've bought there and it won't be the last.
Cabela's: High prices, polite counter guys who are usually already busy helping somebody else. But they usually have mags in stock.
There are 3 in the SE Mich area that I patronize, I'm sure there may be some others, but these are where I mainly end up.
One is connected to the range we use. Good prices on new, most of the used guns are pretty high, they will deal some on the used guns. Really nice people, helpful and patient most of the time. They have a large selection of new and used.
The second has a smaller inventory and is a bit more out of the way for me. Prices on new and used are quite good, staff is generally good, tho I have run into the high pressure sales there once in a while. The "buy it right now because....."
The third is a family owned store with a large selection of new and used. They price their guns to move, especially the used ones. I have bought used guns there at very nice prices. They aren't too good at customer service, not especially friendly, and lose a lot of customers because they often seem to not want to be bothered. If you don't know what you are talking about or looking for or are a newbie, you probably won't have a good experience.
I mostly buy used guns, have an idea of what I'm doing, and price is important. I've bought from all three and will continue to do so.
I can't find anything I disagree with in any of the comments. Sounds like most of us think alike, when it comes to being customers at such shops.
As for me, I suppose I shall be searching out a new 'favorite' shop to spend my gun-buying budget at. The present shop... one person there tells me on the phone they owe me money for an overcharge, while another person is mailing me a bill for more money on the same transaction. My reaction.... I paid everything I was asked to without a quibble or question. Whatever is going on between their staff.... I choose not to get in the middle of.
There is a place in New Holland that has an excellent reputation, and I think I shall go investigate!
My favorite is this old run down looking place, about 15 miles out of town. I've done a few years worth of business with the owner, and he treats me today like he treated me the first time I walked in- with respect. Which is more than I can say for the rest around here. I don't look my age, and when I get the "dumb kid" tone from someone, I tend to forget what I was shopping for.
Second favorite is the almighty GM- right before and after deer season, when everyone is upgrading. Good guns that have been treated well, shot less. May be a few scratches, but good values. I've talked with one of the counter guys enough that when I walk in he usually has something to show me that I would want, not what his boss wants me to buy.
And lastly- only last because I have yet to buy a firearm from the man. I need to fix that- Is a shop that is a living encyclopedia/museum. The guys that run it have enough experience that anytime I have a question I can't find an answer to, I go there. the price for a question is usually buying some ammo or reloading stuff, and they are happy to teach. Just a really really weird location.
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